It’s funny how certain things people say get stuck in your head like a broken record. For example, a few months ago, when I was blogging about my hatred for my former “other woman” who I once loved, blog-friend Terri made the comment that the opposite of love is indifference, not hate. She, of course, was quoting the Nobel Laureate Eli Wiesel, one of my favorite think-meisters. But what Terri didn’t realize (and neither did I) is how the quote would lodge in my brain, forcing me to ponder its meaning over and over again.
Will I ever be truly indifferent toward my former lover? Maybe, but only time will tell.
Certainly, I have come a long way since our affair came to an end nearly two years ago. I think about OW less and less, and when she does come to mind, it has more to do with how the affair has impacted me and my family. No longer do I sit around dreaming of “what could have been.” Nor do I blame her for all the things I’ve ranted about in my earlier posts. My blog-friend Chaz who talks about things “fading in the rearview mirror” is correct in his analogy. Things do fade. She is fading.
But will she fade to the point of indifference? That’s the question.
As I spend the next few months of my life deciding if such ‘indifference’ is possible (it may take longer than that), I’d like to offer up another quote that I came across this afternoon. I immediately thought of you, MM!
“Have you ever been in love? Horrible isn’t it? It makes you so vulnerable. It opens your chest and it opens up your heart and it means that someone can get inside you and mess you up. You build up all these defenses, you build up a whole suit of armor, so that nothing can hurt you, then one stupid person, no different from any other stupid person, wanders into your stupid life…You give them a piece of you. They didn’t ask for it. They did something dumb one day, like kiss you or smile at you, and then your life isn’t your own anymore. Love takes hostages. It gets inside you. It eats you out and leaves you crying in the darkness, so simple a phrase like ‘maybe we should be just friends’ turns into a glass splinter working its way into your heart. It hurts. Not just in the imagination. Not just in the mind. It’s a soul-hurt, a real gets-inside-you-and-rips-you-apart pain. I hate love.” ~Neil Gaiman
i hate love, too. lol. i know that im still young and there are “fishes in the sea,” etc. but what i felt with and for R was like nothing else… just like i think is the case for you and your OW in many ways. and i have concluded it was not just because of the excitement, the addiction of the affair.
how are we ever supposed to be indifference towards our ex’s? i dont think we could be. may we think of them less and less? yes. may we look back and laugh at them? you bet. but i dont know how one can look back and be indifferent… it kind of goes along with your comment on my page about how we are emotional and we are better off than them. being indifferent would be kind of like being emotionless toward them, correct?
i think back about all my ex’s from my first boyfriend in middle school… im not indifferent about any of them. im not impartial to my opinions about them- i either remember them fondly or not. my view on R may change… but ill never be impartial in my thoughts about him. and remember, R meant more to me than any of those earlier guys… so id imagine that if i still am not indifferent toward them over a decade later, the love of my life turned asshole of my life, wont just become someone i have an indifferent attitude toward. he will fade, yes… he wont haunt as much. some days it may seem im indifferent… but that will change when i wake up the following day.
being indifferent means that something is not making a difference or mattering. i think that our blogs are proof that our affairs mattered… and they made a huge difference in our lives that will follow us.
I have come to the conclusion that indifference is how my wife has been treating me, and my feelings. It’s not caring for me or them, or hating me or not caring for my feelings. It truly is indifference, and it makes total sense to me that it would be the opposite of love.
I hope she is different soon. I am losing steam.
She comes back into town tomorrow night, after having been gone for two weeks. She is tired, and has been working hard taking care of her Cousins baby (while her Cousin had brain surgery), but she has yet to say anything nice or loving to me for the entire time she has been gone. I don’t call her or pester her, but she does make contact with me. This tells me not that she cares about me, but the kids, as when I get on the phone her voice lacks energy or presence. Indifference. She really just can’t bring herself to say anything that would leave me feeling good about our situation. It’s flat. Maybe it’s her situation, but I can’t help but feel as though I am picking up on her true feelings. Indifference.
Mike, without knowing the timeline on when those unfortunate events in your marriage occured, I get the feeling it wasn’t too long ago. Less than a year perhaps? A few months ago? I, too, had an air of indifference around my wife. I tried to hide it, but my wife sensed it. It’s why I chuckle when I read articles entitled, “How to Catch a Cheating Spouse.” In my experience, no counter surveillance is needed because guilt and/or indifference is written all over the person’s face. It’s impossible to hide.
But that was then, and this is now. I am no longer indifferent toward my wife, and haven’t been for a long while. But it took me several months to get to this point. Snapping out of that dreamlike affair-state is hard and takes time. It’s not that your wife is indifferent toward you (though it may feel that way). It’s just that’s she still in that trance that affairs create. It’s a powerfully addictive thing. Believe me when I say that. I’m a strong guy with a strong sense of independence, yet my affair was like smoking crack cocaine for the first time. The addiction was almost immediate, and hard as hell to break free from.
Someday, I’m going to give my wife a medal for sticking with me during my ‘indifference’ phase. I love her so much, as I’m sure your wife loves you. She’s just lost of sight of all that. But she’ll remember. Soon enough.
i think fondly of the guy i slept with not because i dwell on what could have been, but because he was a good friend. i imagine that EHB thinks the same way of the girl he slept with. he says he feels indifference towards the situation but i cant be completely sure. i would love if he was really indifferent towards her, so that i could feel like he has made a real effort to get us back on track.
i dont dwell on feelings for those people in our past much, because it kept me from moving forward. i had put so much energy into figuring things out and kinda trying to coax EHB along, that i think he started feeling that i was indifferent towards him. my focus was on the outside issues rather than making the inside stuff better. i hated her so very much that i was consumed by it, but now i just dont care much for her. my indifference is now towards her, rather than my relationship and that seems to be the best solution for us so far.
MM – I think the indifference that must set in for us to move past a painful relationship is not a state of not having an emotional response to that individual…it’s getting to the point where that initial response has no weight or bearing on OUR lives. Yes, we will always acknowledge that we loved, or hated, a particular person. But we can get to the point where we can access those memories without giving free reign to that demon of which you spoke. We can remember, and acknowledge, the love, passion, pain, etc…without it ripping us to shreds, sending us into a few days depression or making us want to stab someone with an ice pick. Yeah.
Just as you said you remember past bfs and have an opinion about them…yes, you remember them fondly, or not…but how you remember them does not send you into an emotional upheaval…as those emotions probably did when the wounds and heartbreaks were ‘fresh’.
I have an ex-husband, who I will always have a certain kind of love for. But I left him because he was mean. He was emotionally abusive. He was physically abusive, though he never HIT me. I hated him before I left him. I grieved. Then, I moved past the hate, and those painful memories became just that. Memories. The emotional content ‘faded’, it held no more weight on my current life. I am indifferent to those memories. Yes…I will ALWAYS remember them…and I can remember how they made me feel…and they are part of who I am. But they no longer cause me pain.
One day, I will see the name PAM, or hear certain songs…and I will be indifferent. I won’t have a gut response to those things that remind me of my husband’s ow. I will not see men on cell phones, and immediately assume they MUST be having an affair. I will not look at her Myspace…and if I happen upon a picture of her online, I will not feel an instant smothering knot in the pit of my stomach. One day, I will not chronologically denote my life with ‘before Tim’s affair’, ‘during Tim’s affaird’, and ‘after Tim came home’. I look forward to the day when I can have those memories come to mind…remember the feelings associated with those memories…and just know that those things have no bearing, carry not weight, in my life.
I think that’s how I define indifference. Of course, it’s almost 2am. So who knows!
hi T-
i think you and i agree, we just are looking at the circumstances differently. i think i was more or less focusing on the indifference towards the individual as opposed to events relating to them like hearing a song. i can already say that i can, once again, listen to songs or go places that i couldnt just a few months ago- so in that sense, i am already becoming indifferent as you describe.
before i responded to TV’s post here i looked up the definition to indifference… and all the descriptions made it sound as if indifferent was almost as if it didnt meant enough to even impact your life. “without concern”… and the way i look at it, to be indifferent about the person who aggravated you in the affair (whether its R for me, or Tim or Pam for you) will never happen. Our opinion may shift, the feelings may be less intense… but we will never forget those people were part of our lives… and we will never forget the affair- regardless of the side we are on… we can all move on, but i suppose i look at it as to say we are indifferent about the affair or person(s) involved is to almost say it had no impact. and to me, we have all be severely impacted by our various affairs.
but it definitely feels good when you start to let go of that ice pick feeling you described… then again, i wonder if its indifference or desensitization?
Teev…
A couple of reflections…
I am not convinced that indifference is opposite of love. I am more inclined toward a good old fashioned toxic hatred being the opposite.
You know where you are seething at the other person. You form an ulcerative resentment to their mere existence. You believe with deep conviction that they truly are a waste of oxygen!
A little less poetic than “indifference” but maybe it is a guy-thing.
Have you ever considered challenging the OW to a good old-fashion hockey fight? This is how we Canadians put things behind us. They are surprisingly theraputic. The great equalizer of all relational differences…. a good glove-droppin’, jersey-tearing, helmet-rolling hockey fight! You may wish to re-read my post on the subject. Wait a minute…. you can’t hockey-fight a girl. Cancel that.
OK… but seriously…. this brings up a fabuolous question…. is indifference indeed the opposite of love or is hatred?
I will be candid momentarily. I felt I truly hated my ex when she was running off with OM. Yet, I know in the early days, I would have taken her back in a heart beat. So was my ‘hatred’ not really a reaction of being in pain over someone I really loved?
Fast forward a few years to today. I truly feel indifferent to my ex. My interest in her has faded…. yes, the rear-view mirror thing (btw… thanks for the credit on that one).
I would say if I could be objective, my ex is a hot looking woman. But yet, she just does not appeal to me anymore. My tastes have drifted from her completely. And I say that completely sincerely.
Her type does not even catch my attention. My focus has completely shifted to my new wife who is physically quite different than my ex.
Honestly bro…. I stil believe time will continue to relieve the sting of the trauma. And as you rebuild with your wife, the fading will simply happen.
I do hope things continue to improve with your marriage. Keep in mind that we never know what corner the next miracle is around.
I am believing for a couple miracles in my work life right now and frankly, I am not anxious. I am excited to see what will unfold next.
Ciao.
Chaz
Chaz, toxic hatred? That, I can do!
MM, the ice pick feeling is gone, I’m proud to say. Indifference? The more I think about it, I don’t even know what that is.
Terri, your 2 a.m. post made total sense. Some of my best thinking occurs between 12 midnight and 6 a.m.
Uncensored, I wish like hell I could be like you and not dwell on the past. And hey, at least you’re ‘gettin’ some’ these days!
yea, me too. although if i was in a dark alley… and if was holding an ice pick… and if i ran into R the feeling might come back… lol.
sometimes i wonder if im really over everything and as such am able to not dwell on the past … maybe im deluding myself into thinking thinks are ok when they really arent.
whatever the reason … i just dont find myself worrying about those things anymore
A wise man once told me, “never underestimate the value of toxic hatred”.
Ok… so he wasn’t so wise. But he was the best cell-mate a guy could ask for.
Coming at this indifference from another point of view. The “wronged” spouse. He cheated. I don’t hate him anymore, but I won’t allow myself to love him again. I force myself to be “indifferent” so I can’t get hurt again, and hope we can make a mutually parasitic relationship work until our daughter is grown. Approximately 10 years and counting.
So, I’ve been reading your blog.
It is interesting and well written.
I fucking hate you. Well, what you stand for as a cheating spouse.
Your blog has been very informative.
The Neil Gaiman quote is veracious.
Best of luck to you and your wife.
That is all.
You fucking hate me? You must be hanging around with my wife!
Jen, you are not “indifferent” in the least bit. Scared to leave because you are dependent and insecure…maybe, who knows. I will say this though, kudos on your decision to “tough” it out and stay in the relationship/marriage for your daughters sake! I mean, why on earth would you EVER want to set an example of a healthy relationship for her, when you can show her that life is all about being unhappily married? In case you haven’t noticed, I’m dripping sarcasm! You’re obviously unhappy (and quite obviously). Maintaining a “mutually parasitic” relationship is just ridiculous and kind of irresponsible. You think your daughter doesn’t pick up on any of this? Grow a pair and show your daughter that life doesn’t have to be that way!
Cheaters, grow the f&*% up already, quit being so selfish and excercise some self control!
Amused, welcome to the shit-storm. Are you a past or present cheater, or a casual passerby? I agree that married people who try to “tough it out” often cause more damage than good. But I will say this much (and its a very selfish, self-preserving statement), if I do get a divorce, I’m glad I waited for the emotions to subside. If I had tried to leave right after my affair was discovered, my wife would have “ended” me. Now, two and a half years later, I think we could reach a more amicable agreement.
Amused…Thank you, but you’re a “day late and a dollar short” on your insightful comment. Quite happily divorced him 5 years ago and recently ended the “mutually parasitic relationship” that we continued afterward.
TV…so far you’re right, the ending is much calmer than I ever expected now that emotions have subsided. He’s as relieved as I am that we can move on. We’ve both suffered enough. We are trying to remain friends(friendly) as there is our daughter to think of, and strange as it may seem, there is respect for each other regardless of the situation that brought us here.
So after reading this I do have to agree, that the opposite of love is in fact indifference. But I must interject on what I believe is the meaning of this quote. I think that if you loved someone and not just lusted for them that it will be impossible to ever be indifferent. Time may pass, wounds may heel and the pain goes away but, may in fact be replaced with a void, that may be mistaken for indifference. Because of the absence of the once so intense pain there may be a relief and even some good feeling that fills this void every once in while. Do not forget though that this is not indifference, it is recovery… the size of the feelings may be a fraction of what they once were but even that small fraction will always have the intensity of the sun. This is not indifference.
What I think when Eli Wiesel says, ” Indifference is the opposite of love”, is the relationship where one does not care whether it works or does not work from the beginning. I think this may be easier to illustrate with and example. I have been in a string of relationships over the last 18 months, which all have failed terribly. The common factor obviously is me. The common cause was my always told to be the amount of affection or lack there of , my partners did not feel I cared about them at all.
The moral of that story being that I sat back and asked myself what is going on. I was once such a passionate, caring and hopeless romantic that it made people sick, and now I cannot even convince a person I am dating that I care? The answer is that I have an indifference and no matter what I do it will come off as it has. I was once in love, still am and always will be. Time may fade the feelings and I may go months without thinking about her, but when I every once in awhile the intense feelings return and I could crumble under their intensities. I assume that this will continue to happen and my indifference will continue as well until I find someone that elicit the same amount of emotion from my soul as she did.
I had a longterm off/on relationship with a guy for 9 years many years ago and because he had a physical problem that he never got help for, it was totally platonic and I loved him deeply but felt hopeless. Eventually, he had an operation and in the meantime, I had got engaged to someone else. He called me and asked me out. At the end of the night he wanted sex for the first time. I just couldn’t do it and walked away. I didn’t see him again for many years. When I did eventually see him he said ‘hello’ very quickly and rushed off. I contacted him again a few years ago. We had a date and he was hostile towards me and rude. He said he’d lived with a girl and had had 3 kids, but she’d left. I went home with him and we still didn’t have sex. A year or so ago a friend told me she’d heard that he had died. I couldn’t help myself. I sent him a text and asked him if he was still alive! He replied cryptically ‘I’ve been dead for years’. So, had he become indifferent. I’ve seen him around a few times and he gives me a friendly smile and says ‘hello’, but he never comes near me. I still feel warmth for him and am definitely not indifferent, I would stop and chat to him anytime but feel I can’t, but then, perhaps I truly loved him and his indifference is proof that he never really cared for me.